A Discussion of Yearnings with Michael Davis

Yearnings
Michael Davis
Davisstories.com
Author of the Year, 2008

Sometimes, the story behind how a novel came about can be interesting as well. Here's an explanation of how my new release BLIND CONSENT grew from a simple experience on a spring day and its connection with my personal life.

It all started with a whisper I ignored for years, until it became overpowering and I had to heed the call. I think many of us experience such a yearning; but we just refuse to recognize the source. What do I mean? Well, have you ever had a voice in the distance regions of you mind call out, beckon to be heard, demand you take some course, but the sounds are confusing, unclear. You can make out a few words, but the pending intent is obscured so you ignore it. For years, I felt that yearning, heard indecipherable echoes, until about five years before I retired, I realized what it was trying to tell me.

It was the roots of my youth calling me back, summoning me to the environment I enjoyed as a small boy. You see, when I was but a lad, my dad ripped me out of the countryside and plopped us down in a major metropolitan area. Whenever I wasn’t working on Saturday, I would hike the park reserves, the state forests, or the wooded areas around the watershed where I lived. In some strange way, it gave me peace, purged the frustrations with modern life in the fast lane. Finally, it hit me, what I really wanted, to return to my past. To quench this thirst for a simpler existence, we moved to SW Virginia, rediscovered the wonder of country life, and I have loved every minute since my return.

That yearning to resolve the distant call from a time gone by was the initial seed for my upcoming release, BLIND CONSENT. I based many of the scenes on my recollection of the wonderful people of a lost era in the improvised south were I was raised. I even flavored the story with memories of my childhood sweethearts, but with an intriguing twist for the fictional characters.

Ryan Mitchell is visited by confusing dreams, visions he doesn’t comprehend of a boy and a young girl with an intertwined past that reaches into his present life. Problem is, when Ryan returns to his birthplace, things are not what they seem. The town of Tanglewood Falls offers breath-taking views, yet the serendipity is misleading. The wonderful people of this forgotten community in the center of the Horseshoe Mountains have been unwittingly exploited. Their act of trust and blind consent altered their existence and the secret has remained buried, until Ryan returns to explore his heritage. His search for the truth, an explanation to his dreams and the hidden guilt they provoke; everything collides with the folklore of the simple people and the belief that their beautiful Annie is blessed. Together, Ryan and Annie unravel the mystery, but at a price. They become targets of those responsible for what happened to the town. As the truth is exposed, Ryan must grapple with his own reality; the fact that his past, his nightmares, and Annie’s secret, everything is entangled in the desperate act of one lonely man.

The romantic suspense BLIND CONSENT will be release in April/09. For a preview, check out the excerpts provided at Davisstories.com, and remember: the answers you seek are buried in the secrets of the past.

Top 10 Countdown, #10

Top 10 List of Ways to Promote Your Writing.....Countdown

10. Get your name out!

Now this can be done in so many ways it's nearly ridiculous. There are so many possibilities that it actually overwhelms the normal (hmmm....normal...I used to know what that was, but have since lost the meaning) person.

"Why do I need to do the Facebook, MySpace, Linkedin, etc. thing?"

The honest answer? You don't. You are the master of your own destiny (Unlike the Queen song states!) and you choose what you have time for and what you don't. This is a GREAT thing. You have options, many of them, and they are all under your control.

You can create a:

• Facebook page (www.facebook.com), though I haven't found that very helpful. I find that I am more apt to have family that know me there and want to share pictures and talk about real life and not my writing world. Though I have heard great things from other authors that use the same reasons why I don't find it helpful as reasons why they find it helpful. Though be on guard if you write under your real name. There may be people in your life that don't know that you write in a certain genre, and it may be a bit awkward for them to find out in this manner.
  

• MySpace page (www.myspace.com), several authors say that their page has gotten them pretty good traffic while some older (or should I say "more sophisticated") authors have found MySpace to be a little "young" for their taste. I guess being hit on by young rap gods, and being proposed marriage by a Nigerian prince isn't a popular promotional tool.
  

• Blogger or WordPress blog (www.blogger.com or www.wordpress.com), these can become rather time consuming and some authors do decide to pool their resources and create one blog. This creates the need to only blog once or twice per week. You can kill your blog and the interest in you if you are inconsistent in your blogging. If you start blogging every week and get your readers hooked on you and STOP! Your readers will become confused. They will not know when to come by to visit and will make little or no effort to search you out. This would be especially true if you were giving them samples of your work and were providing them tidbits of a free story to get them hooked on you and your writing. Starving readers will read elsewhere. So if you go this route, be prepared to be consistent, OR be prepared to work ahead and pre-post your posts.

• Twitter page (www.twitter.com), OK, obviously you can tell that I can't get anything said in 140 characters or less, but with Twitter, if you are able to do it, then the world is at your fingertips. There are Twitter novelists that have a great following, and authors who mention all of their contests, and some authors who honestly mention some rather "unique" things on their Twitter pages. It's definitely a way to get your readers to know who you are and what is happening in your world. They have even gone as far as creating Twitter groups (http://twittgroups.com/index.php) which have every single type of group you could possibly want from Barfly to Book Marketing Online.
  

• Create your very own website! Of course your readers want to get to learn who you are as a person and a writer, so show them! Showcase your talents and let them know exactly who you are. But keep in mind the things that niggle at your nerves when you visit other websites, and keep things to a minimum. No reader likes to have to dig through a jungle to find your latest release or your contact information. Keep everything within reach and ENJOY!

I am sure that there are thousands of other sites that you can join and network on, but I wanted to touch on some of the more popular ones and give you a few ideas as to what you could be aiming for. Shoot for the skies, this is your journey. Take it with your eyes wide open, open your wings and FLY!

Make sure you come back next week when I will be shouting like an old newspaper hawker, Extra! Extra! Read All About It!

Interviewing Angelica Hart & Zi

Tami: Welcome, Welcome! Grab a seat and let's chat! Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to come over to the blog and chat a while. How are you two doing today?

Angelica & Zi:
A: Hi Tami, fortunate is the word I choose to describe how I'm doing, fortunate to be here with you, Zi and all Champagne's readers.

Z: How apt of you to use the word fortunate. To steal from an old philosopher, "Fortune is a god..." Angelica and I have been granted an absolute privilege to be able to channel our creativity, draw upon a life of experiences, and some writing skill, all with a purpose of entertaining. "Industry is fortune's right hand, and fragility her left." is an old proverb. So, to answer your question, Tami, I am doing fabulous!

A: I thought we agreed we were going to have just one sentence as a greeting?

Z: Remove the periods then it's a run on sentence.

A: Hi Tami.

Z: Hi Readers.

Tami: How long have the two of you been writing together? Is this your first time with Champagne? Tell us how such great chemistry brought together this mighty duo.

Angelica & Zi:
Z: Three questions, gotcha: 1) We have been writing for what seems to be a lifetime together, separately. There have been many titles published since 1996. B) KILLER DOLLS will be our first with Champagne, and SNAKE DANCE our second. This will be at least our eighteenth collaboration. Finally) Well, great third question. As a chemistry major in college, I figured it out early that the most entertaining of all experiments were the ones that were the most reactive. So, some days I'm the catalyst and others Angelica is.

A: Zi answered the first two, and I never did pass chemistry, so my response is, we can be combustible when we write together, just playing off each other until we believe we found the right formula that will tease emotion out of our readers.

Z: Angelica as a once Philly girl has an edge that bites but never cuts clean. Couple that with my analytical proclivity and we've a formula for sparks.

A: Sparks... sometimes outright infernos. If you'd always do what I said things would be smoother.

Z: Yes they would... but far less entertaining.

A: You got a point.

A: Zi?

Z: Yes.

A: You think she was just asking about how we got together?

Z: Naw, and if she was, it's a secret.

Tami: Well I'm glad that you two could make it. Now I know that I shouldn't come out in public and make such a big fuss and all, but your new book has me wanting to hide under the sheets a little. What can you tell me about Killer Dolls? Tell me something that is going to bring me out from under the covers. Give me just a little bit of dirt.

Angelica & Zi:
A: Thank you for foreshadowing our tale of romance complicated by terrorism. We don't want you to come out from under the covers. We want you to take a flashlight in there with you and quake and quiver as you read. Zi, where are you?

Z: Be right there. Have to put away my chainsaw.

A: Forgive him, he's been multi-tasking this morning. Sorry for the delay. He's coming. Zi! Answer this question.

Z: Why are you whispering? Ah, great question. In the possible contemporary style of Lisa Scottoline (Philadelphia area) or Patricia Cornwell, we tried to construct a suspenseful piece, and at the same time, respect the genre of romance. Without getting too maudlin, we live in a world that is haunted daily by an underlying fear of terrorism. I hate that. My life was personally altered by 9/11. Now, having said that, life goes on, love goes on, and if lucky and or good, sex goes on and on and on.

A: Did you actually say that?

Z: Yes, I do hate terrorism.

A: Subterfuge. Subterfuge. Subterfuge. It never ends... The piece is geographically set in Delaware, and we use our personal knowledge of that Diamond State to enhance the color of the tale. So here's a little slice of dirt that I'm going to share with you. I wrote the first draft from the male point of view and Zi accepted the challenge of the female. We then fought for seven weeks. It was the greatest seven weeks.

Z: Take that back. FTI. You can't tell them that!

A: Yes I can, and did.

Z: Where's the frackin' delete?

Tami: You don’t watch Battlestar Gallactica do you? Hold on, that’s another conversation for another day. Now what about Snake Dance? You had to create another world with that one. I am not sure that I could sit down with a member of the opposite sex and create a world that we would both have to live in for a while. How did it happen and how did the characters like what you came up with?

Angelica & Zi:
Z: The creative meeting we had brainstorming this fantasy for SNAKE DANCE was an epic adventure in compromising our lack of a willingness to compromise. The world ultimately became a huge extension of Angelica's imagination. The trade-off was that the characters and the conflict reflected mine. Ahhhhh, if it was only that easy. Whereas, the story unfolded naturally and with simplicity, since we both found a remarkable fascination in the iconic tale. But the color, the facade, the tone and texture were occasionally a confounding task. We literally wallpapered our office with page after page after page of ideas and as we constructed Starling we drew from what seemed to be an endless reservoir of cognitive subtext.

A: Did you tell them that we fought... and fought?

Z: Immmpliiiied.

A: Tami, you raise a point of sexism. The most beautiful component of this Angelica Hart and Zi collaboration is that we have a profoundly deep honor and respect for both sexes, and their place in the natural coexistence of relating. Yes, we see the differences, and adore them. We see the formidable instinctual tugs, and enhance them. So, I think I'm comfortable in saying that it's not the negative we feel but the awesome positive nature of a man and woman creating, they believing, truly believing that the world and the love in it have endless possibilities.

Z: One of the most important points of view I maintain is that every female protagonist is complex, strong, has heroine qualities, and can be the every woman. Mind you, this is hard in fantasy but the template is always in place. I will never agree to a mindless female. Furthermore, Angelica and I have agreed that the principle characters must, and I shall repeat, must have a reason to feel love before they do the horizontal snake dance.

A: Tami, what a great question about how do our characters feel about what we have created for them. Well, when they're lonely, they hate us. When they're being chased by the bad guys, they hate us. When we poke fun at them, they hate us. But when we arrange in the finale for them to requite the honest pursuit of love in that very special way, they put us on their Christmas card list.

Z: The depth and complexity of both the world and the conflict we placed in that world is the greatest gift we give each other as writers, for from that aforementioned depth, the characters can often and quickly reveal themselves more richly.

A: And occasionally more naughty.

Z: Duh! Why else the complexity.

Tami: Now let's say that there are some more questions that I want to ask you guys. Who do I ask? Angelica or Zi? And to which address do I send it to?

Angelica & Zi:
A: We love to interact. As we have said so many times, we write specifically for the readers, therefore, their point of view is important.

angelicahartzi@gmail.com

Tami: I would like to know release dates on all your upcoming books and anything else you might have up your sleeves. Come on, you can tell me, I promise not to tell anyone.

Angelica & Zi:
A: KILLER DOLLS - September 2009
SNAKE DANCE - February 2010

Z: We just finished a sequel to KILLER DOLLS, the working title is LOVE LETTERS. The hero is the quintessential statement of imperfect perfection, and the heroine is the simple epitome of the concept of coloring outside of the lines. The conflict is terrorism. The form fire. The location the beautiful state of Delaware. And the three people, other than us, who have advanced read the manuscript have cried.

A: I cried.

Z: Saw you.

A: YOU CRIED.

Z: Don't tell them that.

A: Zi did not cry... out loud... though he was red-eyed.

Z: On a monthly basis, we are still writing our book review column. For any who have not read it, it is written with humor and a love for our industry. It can be found on Champagne Books' My Space, the Newsletter, and blog. Each month we follow the adventures of Tattle and Wrye as they leap into the words of Champagne authors. The following is its title:

FROM THE DESK OF
DONA PENZA TATTLE, ESQ.
AND
ASSOCIATE WRYE BALDERDASH

Tami: Who has inspired you guys as writers? I know you both have TBR piles, who's on them and how many book are on the piles?

Angelica & Zi:
A. In truth, Zi has been a great inspiration to me, and a procurer of seeing the truth behind the words, never compromising that truth, even in fantasy worlds there is a logic and theme that has to be recognized and respected. I owe this revelation to him, taming my creative frenzy when it becomes outlandish. As for our TBR pile it is too high to list every title and author, but we'll give you a short list from Champagne authors at the end.

Z: Just read what you wrote... my response is... poppycock... it was not two days ago that you told me I couldn't spell hero if spotted H E R. No one believe her, she is spinning a tale. I work with her. I know her. She's evil in ways you don't understand. Having said that, I feel very fortunate to share writing with her. Thomas Fuller wrote, "When Fortune smiles, embrace her." Thomas must have met Angelica Hart.

A: You're so full of ca-ca.

Z: That's my story and I'm sticking to it. When the corn is ripe, pick it.
___
Angelica's TBR pile majorly condensed!

A Ghost Story by Keith Latch
Blade Dancer by K. M. Tolan
Invisible by Kimber Chin
Kisses of Fire by Phyllis Campbell
Investment of the Heart by Linda LaRoque

Tami: Well you guys have now officially worn me out and made my sides hurt from laughter! Thanks so much for stopping by, I can’t wait to have you again and hear you on Champagne’s upcoming podcast!

Angelica & Zi:
Z: Thank you for your generous words. As one armadillo said to the other while standing on the side of the road, "Be careful the walk across could get you tired." It is always my pleasure to try to entertain.

A: You actually used an armadillo reference? Have you no shame? The banter that we share is quite typical to our days. Besides my love for writing, this arena from where I write is just so fun. I consider myself privileged to have talent enough and more so opportunity to share my love of writing. Of course, I thank you, Tami, for this opportunity, but mostly I thank anyone who has ever read anything that we wrote. We write for you.


Angelica Hart and Zi
Killer Dolls ~ September 2009
Snake Dance ~ February 2010
Champagne Books




Tami: Now, y'all need to come back here next week when my southern roots start showin' and we bring Ed Williams in to talk about his new book ChristmaSin'. See ya then!

Excerpt - Blind Consent by Michael W. Davis

BLIND CONSENT

available at Davisstories.com

(Released by ChampagneBooks.com)

Blurb

The town of Tanglewood Falls offers breath-taking views, yet the serendipity is misleading. The impoverished people and their forgotten community have been unwittingly exploited. Their act of trust and blind consent altered their existence and the secret has remained buried, until Ryan returns to explore his heritage. For twenty years, he’s been haunted by confusing images, recurring dreams rooted in his past. He’s driven to understand their meaning, to obtain answers to his lost memories. Ryan’s search for truth collides with the folklore of the simple people and the belief that their beautiful Annie is blessed. Together, they unravel the mystery, but at a price. They become targets of those responsible for what happened to the town. As the truth is exposed, Ryan must grapple with his own reality; the fact that his past, his nightmares, and Annie’s secret, everything is entangled in the desperate act of one lonely man.

EXCERPT 1

Ryan stared at the horizon and watched the stars vanish into the ocean. His eyes shifted to the dancing flashes of moonlight glittering across the water. From a bench positioned next to the boardwalk, he listened to the pounding in his head as the waves crashed against the beach. He glanced at the climbing tide and observed the sand castles from past visitors erode away.

He caught the moon’s reflection off the sign ten yards to his left, Dup’s Hamburgers and Fries above the closed concession stand. He watched as the clump of ketchup squirted onto his arm from the gorgeous blonde standing by his side. She apologized and admitted her mistake, but Ryan always suspected the accident was by design. She was like no woman he had ever seen, touched, or smelled. In a heartbeat, he knew she was the one.

He had never experienced such peace, such happiness, as when they were together. The strongest memories, those that still flooded his senses, were when they made love; completely blinded by their attraction for each other. Everything was still there: the taste, her scent, and the pleasure.

He jammed his hands against his ears and pressed hard to drive out her voice, her laugh. He pushed against his eyes until the pressure caused flashes of light. He wiped his face with his sleeve, scanned the black sky, and tried again to grasp the reason. He rubbed the skin on his knuckles until the flesh turned red.

I was the one that set things straight. Is this your answer? You can’t be that cruel. Is this some form of divine justice?

His quest for an answer was returned by silence, except for the sound of the waves against the shoreline. The rhythmic noise hammered his eardrums. The terrible images of what he had experienced tonight flashed like a beacon inside his brain.

He searched the horizon for an answer, for relief, but there was nothing. In rebellion for his loss, his agony, Ryan replied to the silence in the only way he knew how. He gazed into the speckled night sky and with a harsh crackling tone, he yelled at no one. “If this is your idea of justice, then the hell with you!”

After an eternity, the faint hue of gray at the edge of the stars signaled the approaching sun. He watched the white surf form a backdrop for the spectrum of colors bathing the debris line on the beach. He smelled the brackish odor of foam mixed with seaweed and water soaked driftwood cast onto the shore.

The first rays of morning light announced the arrival of a fresh beginning. The ballet of nature’s constant struggle with itself began as the gulls circled above the shoreline searching for morsels to fill their empty gullets. A fiddler crab raced toward the surging tide and braved the onslaught of diving predators. The crab and two gulls played a harsh game darting back and forth along the waterline. One bent on escape, the others fighting against hunger. After several missed attempts, one of the gulls swooped down and captured the fleeing prey. The winner tried to race off with its bounty, only to have the second bird execute a midair dogfight. After several attempts, the thief ripped the prey free and chased the crab as it plummeted into the temporary safety of the water. The fiddler floated at the surface to tease the hovering tormentors at his momentary victory, while the gulls squawked and squalled blaming each other for their loss. The brief splash and swirl of a fin marked the price of the crab’s mockery. The dolphin flipped her snout at the losers’ overhead and tossed down her morning meal.

Ryan examined the cruel reality of nature’s riddle played out in the surf. The undeniable truth that some must perish so that others can survive. The commotion somehow pushed back the grief and blocked out the memory long enough to catch motion between the series of tuff covered mounds of sand.

A family slowly drudged through the loose grains of silica, hands bulging with baskets, blankets and toys to support their outing. Once they broke beyond the edge of the dunes, the sight of waves rolling against the shore caused the two children to drop everything. They yelled and screamed as each raced for the prize; the opportunity to be first wet.

The small toddler in the rear tried to pursue her siblings but stumbled twice against the soft sand. The clambering of young voices ripped Ryan back into his world. The sights and sounds of the children provided an abrupt awakening to his loss and his forgotten responsibility. “Emma.”

Excerpt - Without Regret My Love by Melissa Blue

For a long moment Craig just stared at her with a questioning gaze, finally he said, "Are you ready to get out of here?"

"Yes. I feel as though my arms are going to fall off, they're so sore from all the scrubbing I've done this week." Gesturing to the window, she said, "When did it get dark out? I didn't even notice."

"About forty-five minutes ago," Craig replied. "Which gives me an idea, my dear, how do you feel about star gazing?"

My dear?

How many times had she heard those two little words spoken? She'd never thought of herself as a `my dear' as any man's dear for that matter, but coming from his lips…

Without waiting for an answer, he grabbed her hand and pulled her through the front door of the hospital. As she stepped into the starry night, the toe of her shoe caught the bottom step and she cried out, twisting precariously off balance. Instantly, Craig turned, wrapping strong arms about her waist and half lifted her against him. Marissa swallowed hard as she landed mere inches from his smiling visage. Her arms settled about his neck, and the length of her body crushed against his deliciously hardened frame.

"Well, aren't you accident prone?" Craig teased, tilting his head slightly.

"I've always been a little clumsy," she murmured a little too breathlessly.

"Not that I'm complaining. I'll take whatever excuse I can get to hold you this way." He half turned, lifting her off the last step and setting her feet gently to the ground without releasing her.

Heart thundering in her chest so hard she was fairly certain he could feel it resonating through her body and into his, she said, "I wonder how your Miss Jamison would feel about your holding me this way."


~Melissa Blue~
Coming June, 2009: Without Regret My Love
www.champagnebooks.com

Thoughts on courting with Zi

I see courting as a balance between seduction, flirting and intrigue washed with honesty, humor and reality, all designed to impress another to be moved toward desiring to share their time, a simplistic definition for a complex process. A process that has spanned all human and animal history. The pull of Yin and Yang to complete each other. A genetic pre-disposition to mate... to couple... to find a partner. Man and woman are different, capable of co-existing independently but quietly needing the other... wanting the other.

Yes, I agree each can stand alone. Yes, each can requite their goals... though I see that there might be a hollowness or emptiness, being alone. Look deep down in to our soul to a place hidden by rationalizations and you might see a desire to have someone special in your life. You might reveal a want to share. A need to protect as well as being so... A yen for intimacy... a passion to be vulnerable, knowing that expressing that vulnerability requires trust and that trust lets you be closer to the person you really are...

no games...

no shams...

no manipulations.

Zi

Angelica Hart and Zi

Killer Dolls ~ September 2009

Snake Dance ~ February 2010

Champagne Books

Motivation with Michael Davis

Motivation

Michael Davis

Davisstories.com

When I first started writing fiction, like most authors, there were a bunch of facets of the new profession I was blind to; some good, some not so good. One of those “unknowns” was the vast portion of non-writing time that would be consumed by promotion and shining one’s own halo. Like many, I spend as much effort promoting my work as I do creating it. So what does that have to do with motivation? Well hang with me; I’m headed there.

I spend a fair among of time in author chats, doing interviews, signing, and similar activates where I get to interact with readers (one of the major “good things”, by the way). One topic that often comes up is, “What is your motivation to write?” At first, it took me by surprise because, of course, the answer is so damn obvious. But is it? Truth was when I though about the “why” I wrote, it really wasn’t so clean. I mean, I get depressed a lot after spending months in my isolated dungeon living in some fantasy world I create in my screwed up mind. It really gets lonely back there but you don’t want to come out because you’re in the groove. That cuts back on a ton of loven’ time which, even at my age, is important. So just why the hell do I do it? I’ve talked to many author buds and they have gone through the same self-analysis. Now I’ll share the eureka brain flash that finally hit me and answered the question.

Money – Would it shock anyone that once you get one or two novels under your belt, money is not the motivation? Sure, it’s the dream. Everyone wants to see their story on the screen, and if I were a Cussler, Patterson, Grissom, etc; the dollar signs would sparkle in my eyes. But most authors barely make expenses, so that ain’t what keeps you locked in the back room.

Recognition – I live in a small town (maybe 10000). Not a week goes by that someone doesn’t say, “Aren’t you that writer I saw in the newspaper article few months back?”, and I answer, “Yeap, that’s me.” Then I’m offered the opportunity to make a new friend with a complete stranger. Now that is neat (e.g. a good motivation).

Accolades – About every four months I get in a deep pit with a dark cloud hovering above. Then, something happens, I get lifted into the clouds again and I feel blessed to be given the chance to write fiction. Case in point, I was really hanging low when I received 3 reviews back to back on FORGOTTEN CHILDREN, and all were five star rated reviews. One went so far as to state I was as good if not better then the best fiction writers of today. Man, you can’t soar any higher then that, or at least so I thought. Then the same book was nominated as the best romantic suspense of 2008 by two sites. A few months later I won the Best author of 2008 award and my big butt launched into orbit. Really, those are terrific motivations to hide away in my dungeon to try and create another full length romantic suspense (my gender).

Readers– Then we come to the greatest motivation of all, the readers. When you have someone email you and relate how they were moved by a character, or were given a whole new slant on the human condition, or one of my stories helped then escape from the drudgery and frustration of every day life, that is a true high. No bull. People that have read one of my stories will ask me at signings, during interviews, or in person, “Is this why Nancy reacted that way?”, or “Did that symbolize…”, or “When will the sequel be out, and will Don come back?” Then someone will vent a bit because a character they liked or reminded them of an uncle, lover, or brother was killed, and they didn’t like it at all! It’s an indication that, just like in my heart, these characters were alive, real people they grew to love. How can it get any better than that?